Legislature(1999 - 2000)
04/27/1999 09:05 AM Senate FIN
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 4(JUD)
"An Act relating to establishing an office of victims'
rights; relating to compensation of victims of violent
crimes; relating to eligibility for a permanent fund
dividend for persons convicted of and incarcerated for
certain offenses; and amending Rule 16, Alaska Rules
of Criminal Procedure, Rule 9, Alaska Delinquency
Rules, and Rule 501, Alaska Rules of Evidence."
This was the third hearing for this bill. Co-Chair John
Torgerson reminded the committee that earlier concerns had
been worked through during the last hearing. A committee
substitute had been before the committee but was not
adopted to give the sponsor an opportunity to review the
changes. Senator Rick Halford, the sponsor, approved of the
proposed version.
Senator Sean Parnell moved to adopt CS SB 4 (FIN) Version
"I" as a Workdraft. Without objection it was so ordered.
There was no further debate on the bill and Co-Chair John
Torgerson noted the committee had already discussed the
fiscal notes.
Senator Sean Parnell offered a motion to report the bill
from committee. There was no objection and it was so
ordered.
BREAK 9:07AM / 9:08AM
SENATE BILL NO. 95
"An Act relating to the combination of grades that
constitute junior high, middle, or secondary school."
BRUCE CAMPBELL, staff to Senator Randy Phillips, spoke to
the bill. He explained this was a priority issue for the
Anchorage School Board.
SB 95 recognized the grades six to eight "middle school"
concept. Current statute dealt with "junior high"
consisting of seventh, eighth and ninth graders. However,
Anchorage and some parts of other school districts had
adopted the middle school concept. That meant that the
sixth graders were counted as elementary school students
even though they were using space at the junior high school
rate. This bill would allow elementary students in the
sixth grade, when housed in a middle school be counted as
secondary students for the purpose of space allocation.
Senator Randy Phillips moved for adoption of SB 95 (FIN)
Version "I". Senator Al Adams asked for explanation of the
differences between this version and the original. Bruce
Campbell explained that the first version went into the
actual definition of a secondary school student. The
Department of Education informed him the real issue was
housing and should be located in a different area of
statute. The new version had the same concept but was more
elegantly drafted.
He pointed out language on page 3 relating to provisions
for bond issues. One of the requirements for a school
building project was that the municipality had to
demonstrate the need by establishing a long-term enrollment
to indicate the current facilities were inadequate. This
was the particular area the bill addressed by focusing on
the issue of the sixth grade students and whether they were
located in a middle school. If so, they could be counted as
part of the projections of space requirements.
For more technical detail, Bruce Campbell said the
department would need to be consulted.
Senator Al Adams asked if the basic premise was to move
sixth graders into a different school category. Bruce
Campbell said it was to give the school boards that option.
Senator Al Adams pointed out that one of the impacts would
be the change of square footage allotments for individual
students. In doing so, the square footage would increase to
43 square footage per student. He wanted to know if the
students were kept in their present situation, wouldn't
there be adequate space for each student in the Anchorage
School District for the next seven years. Bruce Campbell
deferred to Mike Morgan from the Department of Education.
Senator Al Adams pointed out that in rural Alaska there
were six schools that had unhoused students who were using
hallways and libraries for classrooms. Shouldn't they be
addressed first? Bruce Campbell replied that was a policy
question not appropriate for staff to address.
Senator Lyda Green felt the bigger step this bill would
take was contained on page 3 line 18. This dictated that a
student was considered unhoused if the student attended a
school in a temporary facility. She thought that was a
total shift from the current policy and wanted to know if
that issue was what contributed to the fiscal note. Co-
Chair John Torgerson agreed she was probably right but it
was really a question of whether a portable building was
temporary housing. That had been debated by school
districts for years.
Bruce Campbell responded to Senator Lyda Green's concerns
saying it was part of the statutory construction. He noted
page two lines 2 and 3 addressed whether students were
considered unhoused. This bill continued the statutory
consistency and did not add to the issue, he explained. He
detailed other areas of the bill where this was repeated.
Co-Chair John Torgerson said that matter would need to be
worked through as he had some of the same concerns. Senator
Lyda Green did not have the same understanding of the
language as the sponsor. She said that while she did not
necessarily object to the change, she just wanted the
impact clarified.
The workdraft was adopted by a vote of 7-1-1. Senator Al
Adams cast the nay vote. Senator Loren Leman was absent.
MIKE MORGAN, PMP, Manager, Facilities Section, Education
Support Services, Department of Education, came to the
table at the request of Bruce Campbell to address the
concerns related to the housing of students. He understood
the question to be, "Are students in temporary facilities
considered unhoused?" That was currently the case in
policy, statute and regulations, he answered.
Co-Chair John Torgerson asked if this bill would change the
way the department interpreted unhoused students. Mike
Morgan replied it would change the way the unhoused
students would be calculated in that sixth graders, when
not in a "case fixed" building, would qualify for 43.75
additional square footage over what they currently qualify
for. The space allotment for junior and senior high
students was 150 square feet per student. For elementary
students, that allotment was 106.5 square feet per student.
Therefore, using the higher number, middle schools housing
sixth graders would reach their capacity sooner under the
provisions of this bill.
Senator Lyda Green clarified that no cost would be incurred
until the time when need for a new building was being
justified. Mike Morgan responded that until a school
district requested additional space, either an addition to
an existing building or a new building, the space
allocation would not be considered. It was only in the
qualification for new space that the cost would come into
play. If a district qualified today for 10,000 square feet
all because of sixth graders, if this bill passed the
district would then qualify for approximately 15,000 square
feet.
Co-Chair John Torgerson asked what was the middle school
allocation. Mike Morgan said it was determined by the grade
of the student, not the building itself. The school could
house any combination of students at the discretion of the
district.
Co-Chair John Torgerson wanted to know if under current
law, in a grade sixth through ninth school, the 6th graders
would be calculated at the lower elementary rate. Mike
Morgan confirmed.
Senator Pete Kelly wanted a brief explanation of what the
bill was trying to achieve. Senator Randy Phillips told of
the situation in his community of Eagle River, which was
growing. They had almost 2100 students at Chugiak High
School that was meant to only house 1750 students. The
Department of Education regulations prevented the community
from building another high school until the student
population reached a number the department set. He was
attempting to relieve the pressure on the high school and
give the community the ability to bond itself to build
another high school. He estimated the student population at
the high school in five years would be 3800 students. He
understood it would have statewide affects, but found the
situation intolerable and felt other communities would
encounter the same problems eventually.
Senator Lyda Green didn't understand how this would
alleviate the high school overcrowding situation since it
applied to junior high schools. Senator Randy Phillips made
an inaudible comment.
DEBBIE OSSIANDER, Anchorage School District, testified via
teleconference from Anchorage in favor of the committee
substitute. As school districts moved toward more local
funding for school construction projects, they wanted to
have more input in the configuration of the schools and
what projects were built. She believed the strong
educational arguments for housing sixth graders in middle
schools. The district had one school that operated that way
now and wanted to look at moving more that direction. The
logic of saying that some middle school students qualified
for more space than others did not make sense to her. The
school board wanted to treat all middle students equally.
The most immediate effect of this bill would be seen in the
Muldoon area as a new middle school was planned for
construction. The school board also wanted to look at
changing grade level configurations of two other junior
highs.
This legislation would also impact school districts that
currently housed sixth, seventh and eighth grade students
together, but had not qualified for fair and equitable
square footage.
The main intent of the school board was to allow increased
flexibility in program designs so the educational goals
could be met.
Senator Al Adams asked if even without this legislation,
couldn't a new school in Eagle River be funded through
local bonds. He also wanted to know if the witness didn't
think the first priority should be to take care of the
unhoused students no matter where in Alaska they lived.
Debbie Ossiander agreed there was a problem with rural
student facilities. However, she noted the overcrowding
issues in her community. The school district gained 500-600
students every year and flexibility was needed in designing
schools. She stated that this problem was broader than just
the Eagle River/Chugiak school situation. The primary goal
was to deal with the middle school problem.
Senator Al Adams repeated his question about bonding for
Anchorage school construction. Debbie Ossiander said that
could be done and voters approved bonding where there was a
fifty-percent local match. The school board continued to
urge that the state continue its responsibility for school
construction in the urban areas of the state. The state
should pick up some of the cost of school construction.
Senator Gary Wilken appreciated the plan to extend the
middle school concept. He wanted more information on the
Chugiak situation. Debbie Ossiander responded that in that
specific situation, the community had two middle schools
and one high school. One of the middle schools housed
sixth, seventh and eight grades. Because that school had
those sixth graders, and using the lower allotment for
calculations, it was considered to have excess square
footage. In order to qualify for additional reimbursement
for new construction, the department looked at secondary
space as a combination of middle school and high school
square footage. This formula made the community ineligible
for a new high school. If this bill passed, the Mirror Lake
Middle School space allocation would be adjusted and the
district would then qualify for a new school.
She noted this was not an immediate problem in the sense
that the district did not plan to address the situation for
the next couple of years. The intent was to assist in long-
range planning for that high school. The Anchorage School
Board supported this legislation for reasons beyond the
Eagle River high school issue. She repeated the belief that
they should have increased flexibility. Current regulations
penalized the school board.
LARRY WIGET, Executive Director, Public Affairs, Anchorage
School District, testified via teleconference from
Anchorage. He stated the intent was to simply give the
Anchorage School District the flexibility in program design
with the current education philosophy. It was not the
intent to take every eligible sixth grader and give them
space based on a secondary school allocation. It was merely
an attempt by the school district to have the ability with
a sixth grade student who was housed in a middle school
program to be allocated the same square footage to meet the
program needs of a secondary school.
He felt the fiscal note provided by the department was
based on the assumption that every current or future sixth
grade student in the State Of Alaska would be calculated at
the secondary school level.
The committee addressed the fiscal notes. Mike Morgan
pointed out the fiscal impacts. The department looked at
sixth graders, excluding those housed in K-12 schools
because the bill didn't address those schools even though
they might have some of the same programmatic issues.
Typically in evaluating square footage the department
looked at a five-year post-occupancy horizon. The out-years
were used to determine square footage eligibility.
He referred to the cost impact sheet noting that it broke
the state into several areas and showed the incremental of
the sixth grade class and then only the difference between
the 106.25 incurred under a current regulation versus what
would happen if the bill passed. It then gave an estimated
cost per square foot for the additional square footage.
Another handout before the committee was an example to show
some of the complexities in determining square footage. It
reflected the community of Eagle River. Mike Morgan
detailed the process of configuring housing of students.
The districts could choose to add additional space to
existing buildings or build new schools. There was no limit
on how they used the eligibility for additional square
footage. This handout showed the community had two mixed
grade schools and one middle school that housed only
seventh and eighth graders. It also listed all the
elementary schools and the Chugiak High School. One column
on the handout was labeled "capacity" and was based on
square footage. Another column showed the enrollments of
the various grades. Then a column showed "unhoused
students". A negative number meant that that many more
students could fit in the school. A positive number showed
the amount of overcrowding.
Senator Randy Phillips wanted to know how many relocatable
students were on the Chugiak High campus. Mike Morgan said
hopefully none were included in this figure but they would
rely on the school district to provide the information.
Senator Randy Phillips asked if the school district
included this as part of the housing. Debbie Ossiander
answered no.
Senator Randy Phillips said the point he was trying to make
was that there were nine relocatable buildings on campus,
which demonstrated the urgent need for an additional high
school in the Eagle River area. The capacity for the school
building was 1750 and the campus currently housed 2066
students.
Senator Al Adams wanted to know if the current enrollment
stayed the same for grades K-6 would there be any
overcrowding. Mike Morgan responded that there was
currently overcrowding at the high school only. When
looking at any individual school, the department did not
direct the district to address that particular problem.
The department looked at the bottom line to determine
qualification for additional square footage. A single
school may be under crowded yet the district could still
qualify for additional space based on the district totals.
Senator Al Adams wanted to know if there were any schools
in Alaska that were 150-200 percent over capacity under the
current statute. Mike Morgan said there were nine schools
that were at 190 percent or higher. A seven-year projection
estimated that there would be over twenty schools at that
level.
Senator Al Adams stated that the current problem should be
taken care of rather than rewriting the statute.
Senator Lyda Green asked if the intent of the legislation
was to take ninth graders and place them in the junior high
schools. Mike Morgan said it would give the school
districts the option to determine if that was the best
choice for them. The department did not interfere with how
the students were placed.
Senator Lyda Green asked for the definition of "unhoused."
Mike Morgan answered it was the calculation of space that a
district would be eligible for funding based on existing
square footage and projected population. Senator Lyda
Green then asked if any "relocatable building" was counted
as unhoused. Mike Morgan responded that the square footage
from temporary buildings was identified but not counted.
This was set in both statute and in regulation.
Senator Lyda Green wanted to know if there was a negative
impact for school districts if they had lots of students
housed in relocatables. She had heard the discussion before
and she thought there was another calculation that denied
certain funding to the school districts. Mike Morgan was
unaware of any.
Co-Chair John Torgerson asked if there was anything
stopping the school districts from building to a higher
standard than the department currently outlined. He
understood that the districts could do that. They just
wouldn't be subject to the full reimbursable rate for the
entire square footage. Mike Morgan said that was exactly
correct. To facilitate 100 percent locally funded projects
the department passed regulations that exempted the square
footage of the portion of the facility that were locally
funded and managed. He noted the example of building
oversized gyms to be used as community buildings. The
extra square footage was not counted against them.
Co-Chair John Torgerson wanted to know if it would affect
any other reimbursement program. Mike Morgan could not
think of any except for additional operational costs to the
district, such as heating.
Co-Chair John Torgerson asked if the department was
committed to the $97 million fiscal note. Mike Morgan
affirmed.
Co-Chair John Torgerson asked this to be put into
perspective with the recent bond approval in Anchorage. He
wanted to know the immediate impact. He didn't believe the
impact would be felt in FY01 as noted in the fiscal note.
He understood the intent to show the total impact if many
more schools were built.
Mike Morgan responded that there was one project the
Anchorage School District considered submitting with the
passage of the bond proposition. However, that school would
not have qualified in light of the other school
construction in the community.
Co-Chair John Torgerson asked if the department had
discussed splitting the difference in the space allotment
for the middle schools housing sixth graders. Mike Morgan
said the standards were obtained from the Council for
Educational Facility Planners, an international
organization that worked on school issues. The department
was reviewing those standards and expected to finish the
analysis in the next two months. They would be in a better
position to respond then.
Co-Chair John Torgerson wanted to know if the review was
warranted. Mike Morgan responded that there had been
enough questions over the past year about space guidelines
for all levels to justify the review. Co-Chair John
Torgerson asked if the department was therefore looking at
the broad picture of increasing the square footage for all
grade levels. Mike Morgan confirmed.
Co-Chair John Torgerson asked if most of the districts had
adopted the middle school concept. Mike Morgan said there
were few using the sixth graders. There were more districts
using just the seventh and eighth grades. Senator Randy
Phillips wanted to know which districts so he could get a
percentage of students in the state. Mike Morgan would get
that information.
Senator Gary Wilken asked if with this legislation, the
Fairbanks School District built another school how would
this legislation affect it. Mike Morgan answered. This
would only affect the schools built for the middle school
configurations. He detailed.
Senator Gary Wilken wanted to know if the fiscal note
assumed that all new buildings would be constructed under
the middle school configuration. Mike Morgan replied that
it assumed all that qualified would.
Senator Gary Wilken was confused about information on the
spreadsheet. Were the terms "unhoused" and "excess
capacity" used interchangeably? Mike Morgan affirmed.
Senator Gary Wilken wanted to know how the spreadsheet
would change if the legislation passed. Mike Morgan
explained that the items, Mirror Lake and Birchwood,
showing negative numbers in the unhoused category would
decrease. In the case of Birchwood, he speculated that the
number would become positive.
Tape: SFC - 99 #112, Side B 9:53 AM
Mike Morgan continued saying that the school could then
qualify for additional school construction.
Senator Randy Phillips qualified that this school was an
ABC school and was different from the rest. He felt the
school board members could explain the differences. Mike
Morgan referred to the Mirror Lake School, using it as an
example instead. That school would then become closer to
qualifying for additional space.
Senator Gary Wilken asked if by decreasing excess capacity
it would drive the decision to build a new high school. He
could not make the connection. Mike Morgan responded that
because the department did not look at were secondary
square footage was used-in the middle school or high
school- the district could qualify for new construction. If
the excess square footage were used up for secondary
students, the district would meet its capacity level
sooner.
Debbie Ossiander commented on the bond package that had
just passed. Even if the district qualified for a great
amount of additional funding, that did not mean they would
take advantage of it all.
Co-Chair John Torgerson wanted the department to come back
with more information on the middle school concept and how
a compromise in square footage could be reached. He was
concerned with Senator Al Adams's points as well as Senator
Randy Phillips situation.
He wanted the fiscal note to reflect the actual bond
package items rather than all students who could possibly
be changed. Lastly, he wanted to know the immediate impact
if this were to be retroactive.
Mike Morgan noted that if there were an approved project,
the square footage would already be set.
Co-Chair John Torgerson felt the fiscal note was
considerable overstated.
Senator Lyda Green believed a comparison of costs per
student at a middle school versus a junior high would be
much higher. Almost a quarter of teaching time was lost
under the middle school concept. She supported the intent
of this bill, but she did not want to encourage districts
to adopt the middle school concept.
Senator Randy Phillips wanted the information by Friday and
asked if that was possible. Mike Morgan was unsure. He
wanted time to work on the fiscal note changes. Co-Chair
John Torgerson commented that the new middle school concept
might be the most difficult. He felt that the witness
should be able to adjust the fiscal note based on
information about school district's plans.
Senator Al Adams wanted information on the unhoused
students.
Co-Chair John Torgerson ordered the bill held in committee.
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